just_n_examiner ([info]just_n_examiner) wrote,
@ 2008-08-08 00:27:00
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'The Most Important Part of the Process'
An anonymous comment was posted that included a few points that I felt were worth discussing.

"The search is the most important part of the process..."

I think that you might have a hard time finding anyone to disagree with this statement. When the examiner finds good art, the rest of the examination could almost take care of itself. (Not quite, but almost.) Good art is certainly a prerequisite to an efficient examination.


"...but the powers-that-be would rather offload that to the applicant."

I've seen the ESDs that are submitted with some of the Accelerated Examination cases, and I've spoken with examiners who have examined them. I personally wouldn't accept the art submitted as the best art; I'd still perform my own search. Hopefully the ESD would give me some clues as to the best places to direct my search, so at least it would still hopefully save me some time, though.


"...either Examiners work to become true experts in the art, or we're better off with a registration system..."

This is a good plan. But there are problems that stand in the way of making it happen.

First, after an examiner has built up a substantial docket, the constant flow of RCEs will make it possible (or more accurately, necessary) for the examiner to pick up fewer new cases to examine, because they need to spend most of their time working on amendments. The fewer new applications taken up for examination, the less opportunity to study an area of the art with which they are not familiar.

Second, there are many art areas that are broad enough that it is virtually impossible for examiners to gain expertise in all of the art that they might potentially examine (because they just don't see applications from all areas of their art). I often find myself spending a substantial part of my initial search finding and reading background information so I can get a good understanding of the invention and the related art. I honestly don't know how the examiners in the Business Methods arts do it. That area is seemingly so wide ranging that I imagine they need to do that almost every time they pick up a new application.


I completely agree that a good initial search is central to good examination, but it's tough to do when you've got only a very few hours in which to do it. For me, it's worth spending the extra time on the first action because of the time it saves me in answering the amendments. It saves me from writing many second non-final actions (which is definitely a contrast with my first few years examining).


The thing is, it invariably (from what I've seen) takes some hard experience and some time invested writing second and third non-finals and withdrawing finality for an examiner to figure this out. This will only happen if attorneys at least occasionally force examiners to do it, instead of filing an automatic RCE even when the art is not as good as it should be.

(And this is not a criticism of the way attorneys prosecute their clients' applications, really. It's simply one of the reasons why things are the way they are.)


So what is one to do? One solution would be to give examiners more time for their first actions.

Another possible solution? How about further subdividing the art that examiners handle? In order to make them true experts, it might be helpful to allow examiners to examine a much more narrow area of art than they do today (in some areas of art, anyway).


(Post a new comment)

subdividing
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 04:43 am UTC (link)
It comes as no surprise that some art areas are so broad as to prevent deep expertise, given that the PTO gave up on maintaining the classification system. As art builds up in a given technology area, that area should be subdivided to allow those working in the field to acquire sufficient knowledge to do their job efficiently. Thus, I see these two issues as part of the same problem.

I agree wholeheartedly that large art units should be subdivided (or managed properly within the art unit) so as to give examiners a chance to become comfortable and knowledgeable in their art.

In one of the most efficient examinations I have had, I was interviewing the Examiner. When I proposed an amendment to a claim, he pulled out a folder of art concerning the particular technology and was able to point to a piece of art he knew was close. We were able to come to a reasonable amendment very quickly because he knew the art so well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: subdividing
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 06:30 am UTC (link)
That last comment is illuminating. It is often said that the EPO search is better, but is that only because the EPO searches by industry while the USPTO searches by structural elements? The EPO searches any one app only once. So, when Applicant amends, to subject matter that hasn't been searched, the Rules forbid the Exr from admitting the amendment. Applicant has to start again, with a divisional. Maybe that's why Applicants at the EPO write a good set of dependent claims (to get them searched) and Applicants at the USPTO don't (cos they don't want a good quality PTO search at the outset on their future amendment positions). For the public, is it a good thing, or a bad thing, for apps as filed to include a decent set of fall-back positions in a tidy set of dependent claims?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: subdividing - (Anonymous), 2008-08-18 02:35 pm UTC (Expand)

(Deleted post)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 03:05 pm UTC (link)
JD is absolutely right about petitions -- they are absolutely pointless when the applicant's response clock is still ticking. The net result is that there is no consequence or disincentive at all for the Examiner to mail an improper final rejection. I have yet to have a petition decided before the 6-month clock runs out, and then I'm forced to file an RCE to keep the case alive.

The rules should be amended to toll any response period while a petition is pending, and to give any time back by PTA if the petition is granted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Put the blame on who deserves it
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 04:16 pm UTC (link)
JD,

Firstly, I hope that I am not the "other PTO apologists (who shall remain nameless)". I criticize the office policies & upper management quite often. Not 100% of the time; if I think they are correct I say it & if I think they are wrong I say it. There is a difference between that & being an "apologist".

Now, as to the content of your post. Much of what you say I do agree with (surprised?). The petition process does take much too long (I do not know the people in petitions, so I can not comment on them) to be practical in most instances. It needs to be changed so that petitions after-final ARE handled promptly and the time awaiting decision on petition does not count against the applicant's time to respond to the final (or to file an appeal or RCE). Hopefully, that would be something "procedural" & not "substantive" and could be implemented without major problems.

And, I also agree with you to some extent about new examiners being told to try to get to final ASAP (you were probably told the same thing when you started. No?) The problem is the new examiners not "getting" the full message & only hearing "get to final". The WHOLE message is much like what JPE said above. You want to avoid 2nd+ non-finals (i.e., getting to final ASAP) and to do this you need to do a complete search & complete 1st action. They "forget" the last half. And they are wrong when they do it.

And, I also agree with you about actions being made final when they should be. Too often it is because the examiner thinks they can"get away" with it. Primaries do not have their finals regularly checked and SPEs often do not have the time to carefully check every action (not "apologizing" just stating the facts the way it is now). So, if it looks like the applicant changed the claims the SPE probably does not have the time to carefully read thru all the claims to see what was changed & why & if it really changes the scope. So, a bad final gets sent out. Wrong, but that is how it is right now.

I was reviewing a case the other day where the primary did a crap 1st action & indicated a couple dep. claims allowable. Applicant argued generically (not even pointing out things not in the ref or that the 5 steps for a 103 were not met. Things he could have done.). Crap final using new art. App took the allowed claims after final (no argument about improper final). So, the examiner probably thinks they did a good job. I don't think they did a good job. I think they did a disservice to the applicant (a large company, so they could have fought it if they wanted to spend the $$). But, what can we do about this from the inside? The allowance itself was OK. So, just flag it for the bad file history. But nothing will happen about it.

It is because of things like this that I & others say the "stick" needs to come from the outside. You guys are the ones that can make a difference if you want to do it. Complain, petition, appeal!! The bar & app. reps. can be a big help to improve quality by giving good responses (not bad, see above) and "forcing" the examiner to do the job right. Don't give the easy RCE when it isn't deserved. Appeal & make them reopen if they have a bad rejection (other attorneys have pointed out that there is relatively little additional extra cost after the 1st appeal brief is written for subsequent briefs in the case).

Sometimes,the only way people learn is the hard way. Just like raising a child. You can tell them over & over again that something is bad for them but they will not "really" believe you until they see the consequences of doing that something. Because of the RCE train you all provide, most examiners do not see the consequences of bad rejections.


MVS

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Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-08 04:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-10 12:33 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-10 04:08 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-12 06:17 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 02:15 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Put the blame on who deserves it
[info]just_n_examiner
2008-08-09 06:41 pm UTC (link)
JD,

I agree with everything you've said, wholeheartedly.

However, I'm not saying that it's the attorneys' job to train new examiners. Obviously, that's the PTO's job. I am saying that it's unrealistic to think that the responses received by examiners will have no effect on the way they perform their future examination. Once again, that's not the way it should be, but we do not live in a perfect world, and people (yes, examiners are people!) are very rarely perfect (although there may be exceptions, I suppose).

Attorneys' responses will also serve to dictate some of the training that I give to my junior examiners. Since I generally do not have the time to go over the invention, Office action and prior art with the fine-toothed comb that would be ideal, one of the things I try to zero in on is actions where the examiner is making their rejection final. In that situation, I review in detail the attorney's arguments in their response and the examiner's answer (or not) to them. I'm sure it won't surprise you to know that I very often end up returning those actions because the examiner hasn't addressed all of the arguments, and occasionally because I simply don't think the prior art teaches what they are alleging it does.

They don't like that, of course, but that's the only way they are going to learn to do the job right.

If there are problems with the rejection that aren't argued by the attorney, then I may or may not catch those problems (but truthfully, it is not very likely that I will). If there are arguments on the record, though, then I make sure that they are addressed by the examiner.


The problems you cite are disturbing, particularly the after-final practice. When I read the MPEP regarding after-final practice (admittedly, it's been a while), I got the sense that the system was set up with the over-arching ideas of fairness and reasonableness behind it. These are the questions I ask myself when making a rejection final, and when I handle an after-final response: Am I being reasonable, and am I being fair to the applicant.

I would have thought that the Office of Petitions would have had a mechanism in place to expedite petitions on after-final applications, just like the 10-day limit examiners have, but given your comments, that may not be the case. I simply don't know. If not, though, that certainly wouldn't seem to be consistent with that sense of fairness that the MPEP conveys to me in its provisions for after-final practice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Put the blame on who deserves it
(Anonymous)
2008-08-19 03:29 pm UTC (link)
I have been working for the PTO for almost 2 years now. I also consider myself in good standing (doing an average of 6-7 counts a biweek or 10-12 actions total). I cannot explain the PTO as a whole since I work only a very particular area. However, in my own little corner, my SPE (since i do not have signatory authority as of yet) is very timely. In my 2 years i received 4 pre-appeal briefs and countless RCEs. From my experience, most RCEs result in either an abandonment or allowance within two actions from the RCE. The 4 pre-appeals briefs I've received were delt with within a month.

Now here is the problem i see. The reason the pre-appeals or petitions take so long is that the examiner (if he doesn't check his rejected tab of all his most recent cases, like i do to avoid this problem) has to wait for interoffice mail proceedings to submit the appeal into their docket where it is blatantly obvious that they have to deal with it, which can take about 2 weeks after receiving a submission. From this point, another week is taken to figure out if it should go to the board or the finality removed. The rest of the time is taken to write up and submit it.

Of my personal experience, the 4 pre-appeals i received only one has gone to the board and the other 3 the finality was removed. HOWEVER, of each finality removed each resultant action was an abandonment by applicant. Lastly, the 4th appeal that went to the board was because attorney argued a particular claim was not rejected. That was it, the claim wasn't rejected no substance of arguments about the invention, only that the claim was not rejected. Upon review of the second page of the rejection the claim in question was blatantly rejected, hence it went to the board.

Pertaining particularly to your argument regarding the grounds of finality necessitated by amendment: The office has a separate group that also reviews final actions to catch such mistakes. YES, they only check a random lot of cases (because there are so many cases). It is the examiner's job to understand that an amendment can only be final if necessitated by that amendment. However, i feel it unfair to place the blame on the PTO when the examiner has to scrounge around making sure they attorney did not try to "sneak" in some new independent claims, new matter, change of scope, or whatever else. It's unfortunate but with the amount of cases both the examiner and attorney deal with you will have a couple "bad" apples. If the world was a fair place we wouldn't need a patent system to begin with, or attorneys, or examiners, or...

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Re: Put the blame on who deserves it - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 03:56 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 03:13 pm UTC (link)
JPE,

I completely agree with you. The 1st search is the MOST important part of the examination. If the examiner gets that right the rest of the prosecution is relatively easy.

I particularly agree with your points of:

"I completely agree that a good initial search is central to good examination, but it's tough to do when you've got only a very few hours in which to do it. For me, it's worth spending the extra time on the first action because of the time it saves me in answering the amendments. It saves me from writing many second non-final actions (which is definitely a contrast with my first few years examining).


The thing is, it invariably (from what I've seen) takes some hard experience and some time invested writing second and third non-finals and withdrawing finality for an examiner to figure this out. This will only happen if attorneys at least occasionally force examiners to do it, instead of filing an automatic RCE even when the art is not as good as it should be.

(And this is not a criticism of the way attorneys prosecute their clients' applications, really. It's simply one of the reasons why things are the way they are.)"


Most (new & some older) examiners do not get that if they do not spend the extra time up front on the search they will wind up spending a lot more time later on in the 2nd, 3rd, etc. non-finals. And the only way they will learn is by getting burnt a few times in having to do those repeated non-finals.

And you last line is important, even though there are others that will disagree. Since for most cases the applicant rolls over & just files the RCE (instead of petitioning or appealing) the examiner thinks that they are doing a good job & never learns that they are churning out garbage. I am not criticizing the applicants. They need to do what is in their best interest. But the reality of the situation right now is there are too many newer examiners and too few SPEs/primaries available to give all of the actions the review that is needed. I know of one art that has about 2-3 primaries & over 100 new examiners under 3 years. It is impossible for every action to be reviewed as carefully as they should be. About the only way would be to have the primaries & SPEs do nothing else other than review actions.

Unfortunately, I do not see anything getting better in the near future. The ESD is not the solution (fox & hen-house?). Nor are the con/rce rules. I think the only real solution would be a complete overhaul of the examination process (on all sides). Until that happens no one will be happy with the real work product.

thanks,

LL

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(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 03:47 pm UTC (link)
"Since for most cases the applicant rolls over & just files the RCE (instead of petitioning or appealing)"

And why do you think applicants just roll over instead of petitioning or appealing?

Could it be because, as has been correctly noted above, the petitions process over there is a farce? Could it be because there's a greater than 50/50 chance that your appeal is going to result in re-opening of prosecution and the issuance of an even stupider rejection?

"About the only way would be to have the primaries & SPEs do nothing else other than review actions."

Accepting that such a situation is untenable for primaries, the obvious question that comes to mind is: what else should SPE's be doing?

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-09 01:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Since You Asked - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 09:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Since You Asked - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Since You Asked - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:26 pm UTC (Expand)
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Re: Since You Asked - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)
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Re: Since You Asked - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
CPUBES RULE! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: CPUBES TRULY ARE AWESOME! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 10:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: CPUBES RULE! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Search importance
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 07:18 pm UTC (link)
I also agree that the search is of primary importance, and that examiners aren't allowed enough time to do a good one. So I want to put in a plug here for the EIC searchers - we are professional searchers of foreign patents and non-patent literature (NPL). Examiners have all they can do to become expert in searching US patents (which EIC searchers don't search) without trying to learn to search the rest of the universe as well. Examiners, do yourselves a favor and take your foreign patent and NPL searches to the EIC - you'll be glad you did!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Does the EIC search F-terms?
(Anonymous)
2008-08-08 07:49 pm UTC (link)
Hey anonymous EIC searcher, do you search Japanese F-terms, or just Patent Abstracts of Japan? If you don't yet search F-terms (the best subdivisions of any classification system in the world), do yourself a favor and take some lessons from the JPO - you'll be glad you did!

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Re: Does the EIC search F-terms? - (Anonymous), 2008-10-17 08:53 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Search importance
(Anonymous)
2008-08-09 04:22 pm UTC (link)
I frequently use EIC, but there are two problems with it...

1. and this is the biggie... It takes too long to get results. Often the EIC has a wait of over 5 days for search results. If I started the case at the beginning of the biweek this could be ok, but for the majority of cases, I need the search done quicker than that. Fast and focused and rush searches are available, but there are specific requirements for those.

2. The results are usually not relevant. I always meet with the searcher and discuss in detail what is needed, and I usually then get a stack of art a few inches thick from completely unrelated art that maybe has a keyword or two (out of context) in each document. There are some very good searchers... I know one in particular I always request when it's important, but the majority haven't given me great results in the past. Granted, this may be because I generally do EIC searches when I'm pretty sure there ISN'T any art, but if there isn't any art, just tell me that, don't give me stuff that has isn't even remotely related to the field... It wastes my time to read it. Also, I can't fault them too much, because they have to search many different technologies every day; they don't know my art like I do. Which is a fundamental inherent weakness in the EIC searcher concept - I'm in the better position to search the technology so which is more effective: teaching me to search the NPL or teaching the NPL searcher the technology? Frankly, examiners need better NPL search tools and training so we can better do that part of the search ourselves.

-MM

(Reply to this) (Parent)

differences in art units
[info]humbleagent
2008-08-08 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I was looking at issued patents in various classes the other day to see if there was a significant difference in the number of rejections issued patents normally got before the examiner and applicant could come to agreement on allowable claims.

Class 700 (software) looked fairly efficient. Issued patents averaged about 1.5 rejections before allowance. 15% of the patents got a NOA on the first office action.

Class 705 (business methods) looked miserable (no surprise there). Issued patents averaged 4.5 rejections before allowance. This is consistent with the fact that typically neither the attorneys nor the examiners have any formal education in the subject matter of the inventions (e.g actuary, accountant, securities license etc.) Hence there is a “failure to communicate”.

Class 530 (pharma), however, was almost as bad as business methods. Issued patents averaged 3.5 rejections before allowance.

Can anyone tell me why? I presume that both the examiners and attorneys that handle 530 cases have formal educations in the subject matter (e.g. BS in biochemistry). What is it about this field, then, that makes it so difficult to reach agreement?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: differences in art units
(Anonymous)
2008-08-09 07:46 am UTC (link)
Not in the US, not in the field,

but I would look in the big money involved in pharma: Attorney are fighting harder to stay as broad as they can, aka: they have "to get what their customer is entitled by the law, nothing more [sure!] but NOTHING less".

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Re: differences in art units - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 11:06 am UTC (Expand)

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Re: differences in art units - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 02:02 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]judith_s
2008-08-09 12:23 am UTC (link)
I do agree that the search is important. Probably more important than the office action itself. I've had quite a few cases with killer art badly applied. But unfortunately even more cases with well written office actions accompanied by irrelevant art.

It would be nice if the Examiner could flag a case as "different tech" and get an extra few hours for background research. The Examiner should also get more time when there are more claims as well. After all, the applicant is paying quite a bit extra to have those claims examined (right now $100 per extra claim, $200 per extra independent claim).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2008-08-09 03:03 am UTC (link)
Judith, it's $210/$50 (per independent more than three/per claim exceeding 20). You scared me because I just filed a new application having a few extra claims.

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(no subject) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 11:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 11:10 am UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2008-08-09 03:07 am UTC (link)
Also, examiner should transfer cases that are not within their expertise. Unfortunately, a bunch of idiot SPEs prevent/ignore/refuse legitimate transfer requests. This is a huge problem, along with the poor classification of the art and the overall neglect of classification theory at the PTO.

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(no subject) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 11:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-09 02:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-09 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
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transfer statistics - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-18 12:38 pm UTC (Expand)
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Re: transfer statistics - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 11:01 am UTC (Expand)
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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-09 04:18 pm UTC (Expand)
80s - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-18 12:27 pm UTC (Expand)
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Re: 80s - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 11:19 pm UTC (Expand)
"The search is the most important part of the process..."
(Anonymous)
2008-08-09 12:09 pm UTC (link)
"The search is the most important part of the process..."

I'm the original anonymous comment poster. JPE writes:

"I think that you might have a hard time finding anyone to disagree [publicly, fixed it for you] with this statement."

JPE actions speak much louder than words. You're right, perhaps everyone would say the right words in a political debate, but most people act differently and virtually everyone wants to off-load the search to someone else, or otherwise not perform one. Let's address five groups of individuals (you're perhaps a part of the fifth):

1) PTO Management - PTO management has been trying to abdicate from the search function since Rogan's original 2001 Strategic Plan and the four track system. From 2002 Congressional testimony: "By using searches from CSSs, and other patent offices, the PTO hopes to off-load the search work from examiners, allowing them to concentrate on the core government function of examination." Examination without searching!!! Now that's patentable! Dudas has the same attitude toward the search - off-load it to the applicants (or to another patent office), and put the fox (or China) in charge of the henhouse. Need I say more?

Congressional Testimony:

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju80830.000/hju80830_0f.htm

NIPRA History of anti-search PTO Management (just see how the Examiners' ability to search has been crippled since Lehman's tenure and the mid-1990s):

http://www.nipra.org/politics.html

2) Patent Examiners - Many or most new Examiners have little idea regarding search methodology, and think that a search means putting keywords into EAST. Proper search methodology is not even taught at the Patent Academy, and the techniques that are taught are the same ones that were used in the 80s and 90s. If the search was important, wouldn't R&D on EAST continue at greater than a snail's pace? Due to time constraints of the outdated production system, the search is the one element of examination that *can be* (and often is) short-changed by the Examiner without there being an immediate perceptible sign that the Examiner has "cut a corner". In fact, it is often never discovered that the Examiner has missed relevant art unless the patent is litigated (and even then, litigators are often clueless about searching, so they raise other issues like inequitable conduct instead).

3) Applicants/Inventors/Law Firms - How many applicants file applications without having conducted a pre-Examination search? Does that sound like they think the search is important? Many law firms very particularly tell inventors that "Finding prior art is the PTO's job," and so they blindly write ridiculously broad claims without any awareness of what the prior art is. And perhaps half the times, the ridiculously broad claims issue. (I have been involved in over 300 validity studies, so I have a little idea about percentages.)

4) Applicants/Assignees - How many assignees (such as Microsoft which is perhaps executing a "denial of service" attack on PTO examination by filing beau-coup patent applications with the teensy-tiniest bits of innovation... can you say "Vista"?) outsource their search work to India to save money, regardless of whether the U.S. is the center of the technological development? Does that sound like they think "the search is the most important part of the process"?

5) The folks who understand the patent system, and the importance of the search, and who are willing to act accordingly, spending the time (hours), effort, and money (budget) necessary to have the best search possible conducted. Who are these folks? Are they in PTO management? Are they Examiners? Patent applicants? Assignees? I think you'll find them everywhere, scattered thin across the entire patent profession, still there, still working quietly. Let's hope the next administration does a little more to hear their voice, and understand the true non-political issues that face the patent system.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..."
[info]just_n_examiner
2008-08-10 02:44 am UTC (link)
"...virtually everyone wants to off-load the search to someone else, or otherwise not perform one..."

Back when the idea of 'offloading the search from examiners' was proposed, every examiner that I spoke with thought it was a terrible idea.

You want me to take a pile of prior art from who-knows-where and take it on faith that this is the best art out there, and allow an application and put my name on it without doing my own search? I think not.

It was (and is) a scary prospect for me, because if it ever happened, examiners would surely have their production requirements adjusted to assume that no searching is being performed, yet I'd definitely feel compelled to perform my own search.

I honestly don't know what I'd do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-10 01:26 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 05:22 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 06:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 09:32 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-13 01:33 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 02:06 am UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 03:41 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 03:57 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 04:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 04:25 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 09:22 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - [info]just_n_examiner, 2008-08-13 03:19 am UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..."
(Anonymous)
2008-08-10 03:52 pm UTC (link)
In the Academy, I used to read the entire spec and search 2-3 days for every application. Now in the TC, I get frustrated if I have to even look at the spec or if my search lasts more than 20 minutes. I've talked to many new examiners and this appears to be a common "phenomena". I blame the production requirements along with the different formulas used in the academy and tc.

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Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-10 05:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 02:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 02:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "The search is the most important part of the process..." - (Anonymous), 2008-08-11 02:44 pm UTC (Expand)
More Generalists Please!
(Anonymous)
2008-08-11 09:00 pm UTC (link)
JPE: ""...but the powers-that-be would rather offload that to the applicant."

I've seen the ESDs that are submitted with some of the Accelerated Examination cases, and I've spoken with examiners who have examined them. I personally wouldn't accept the art submitted as the best art; I'd still perform my own search. Hopefully the ESD would give me some clues as to the best places to direct my search, so at least it would still hopefully save me some time, though."

That's the old mentality. It's not wrong, but it is old. If the USPTO isn't going to completely re-vamp the way they do things from classifying correctly, getting cases in the correct art unit without some cross-technology art flat out stonewalling transfers into their unit (happened to me in mechanical arts by electrical people all the time, like near 100% of the time) just because it was classified in the wrong place initially, to adjusting time/case factoring in that we are no longer in the stone age of technology, then you're going to have to start accepting that if you want to keep your job. What I've found since I've been on the outside is that when the amount paid for the search corresponds to a high level of quality of search that is done, it's usually much better than what Examiners do, including what I did as one.

JPE: "Second, there are many art areas that are broad enough that it is virtually impossible for examiners to gain expertise in all of the art that they might potentially examine (because they just don't see applications from all areas of their art). I often find myself spending a substantial part of my initial search finding and reading background information so I can get a good understanding of the invention and the related art. I honestly don't know how the examiners in the Business Methods arts do it. That area is seemingly so wide ranging that I imagine they need to do that almost every time they pick up a new application."

Honestly, you'll become a better searcher and technologist by understanding more technologies, not less. I used to share your view when I was an Examiner, but becoming a generalist across your technology (chemical, mechanical, biology, EE, Computer Eng., etc.) is going to pay off larger dividends than focusing on something like articulated joints with cherries on top. Sure you may know all the patents in that area but what about when it comes time to search the food classes for cherries?

JPE: "I completely agree that a good initial search is central to good examination, but it's tough to do when you've got only a very few hours in which to do it."

Hence, why they thought ESDs are the solution. Force the Appl. to pay for a quality search that Examiners cannot do, and then Examiner's job is to essentially check that it was done correctly and the best art was used. Sure you're going to know sometimes that this wasn't done. Fortunately, I don't have to participate or be involved in what happens then! One solution: keep the same time and devise a list of things to review to make sure the ESD is of a sufficient quality?

JPE: "So what is one to do? One solution would be to give examiners more time for their first actions."

I agree. Good luck on that one. I said the same thing from day one in PEIT to almost my decade at the USPTO. Even to a fresh college grad, it was clear that I had just purchased a ticket on the Titanic and the iceberg was already in sight.

JPE: "Another possible solution? How about further subdividing the art that examiners handle? In order to make them true experts, it might be helpful to allow examiners to examine a much more narrow area of art than they do today (in some areas of art, anyway)."

No, for the reasons I already mentioned above. Focusing on articulated joints with cherries on top makes you an expert on what exact art is classified (sometimes improperly) in those subclasses. You sacrifice your ability to think for yourself, independently, and draw parallels to analogous solutions in other technology areas that are on point. Which by the way, is exactly what technologists at corporations and universities do. Well the smart ones.

JustAnExExmr

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: More Generalists Please!
(Anonymous)
2008-08-12 02:21 am UTC (link)
People who think that the PTO is pushing the search onto the applicant are not quite correct. I remember going to one of the proposed rules meeting a while back and someone asked that if applicant is doing a search and a search report, then is the examiner no longer expected to search and to instead just make patentability determination based on what is submitted. The answer from management was that examiners will still be expected to do a thorough search like they're already doing as well as review the ESD. No extra time will be given for doing more work.

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Re: More Generalists Please! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-12 11:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: More Generalists Please! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-12 12:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: More Generalists Please! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-13 10:26 am UTC (Expand)
Lucy & Ethel
(Anonymous)
2008-08-13 08:21 pm UTC (link)
. . . working at the candy wrapping facility.

Hearing the Boss approach they both start shoving the unwrapped candies everywhere and anywhere imaginable.

The Boss arrives at their station and see's they're "caught up" and yells to the conveyor operator to "SPEED'R UP".

That's production here at the PTO in a nutshell.

~Lucy

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!)
(Anonymous)
2008-08-15 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Here it is, as a tribute to Margaret J.A. Peterlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wp3m1vg06Q

Any takers?

"Peterlin said that one solution to that problem may be to have candidates participate in the Office's 'A Day in the Life of an Examiner' programme, but that finding funding for such a scheme would be a problem."

http://www.managingip.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1927630

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Re: Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-15 01:50 pm UTC (Expand)
OH! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-16 12:01 am UTC (Expand)
Re: OH! - (Anonymous), 2008-08-16 12:41 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-18 12:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-18 02:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!) - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-18 04:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Lucy & Ethel: A day in the life of a Patent Examiner (fully funded, Margaret!) - (Anonymous), 2008-08-18 10:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Technical Expert Hotline - [info]humbleagent, 2008-08-19 11:38 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 12:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 12:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 04:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 07:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 07:49 pm UTC (Expand)

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Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 03:10 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 03:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 05:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-21 04:13 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Technical Expert Hotline - (Anonymous), 2008-08-19 07:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Examiners aren't using the collaboration tools . . . - (Anonymous), 2008-08-20 12:40 pm UTC (Expand)
After having invested a valuable amount of time & effort . . .
(Anonymous)
2008-08-18 02:28 pm UTC (link)
I can now answer any and all questions I had regarding this optics case, which I believe is/should be part and parcel for the job as a Patent Examiner; otherwise how would one become more valuable with time?

The problem lies in the "hit" my production took while I turned my back on the conveyor belt and immersed myself in the resources; (a couple of 75+ page patents, texts and journals) which provided me with this newfound knowledge on optical systems.

I'm not a big proponent of off-loading any part of my job; the search, or even the subject-matter if it's outside of my assigned class, I embrace the opportunity to broaden my examination experience with other topics. However, the production enviroment is NOT conducive to doing the best job possible, in fact it rewards playing "hot potato" with cases that will take extra effort, which is unfortunate because those tend to be the cases with something truly novel to them.

~Lucy, public servant trying 'er best to serve as Thomas Jefferson had intended with the inception of the Patent Office.

(Reply to this)

auto filing rce's vs forcing non-final
(Anonymous)
2008-09-07 03:16 pm UTC (link)
As an examiner, your advice is not goot re: forcing the examiner to to a 2nd non-final or re-open is bad form, resulting in them essentially not getting paid for work performed. I would save this route for only for an action which has bad dates for the reference or is extremely off base.

just my opinion as an examiner..

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: auto filing rce's vs forcing non-final
(Anonymous)
2008-09-08 01:44 pm UTC (link)
As an examiner who gets only occasional RCE's (because second action is usually an allowance by amendment or an abandonment because I provide good FAOMs), I disagree.

If your rejection doesn't include the best art you can find the first time around, you aren't doing your job right the first time and don't deserve to get paid to do it again. Note I said the best art you CAN FIND; it doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be relevant (yes even as a secondary reference in a 103). If you can't find anything relevant to the art that contains the point of novelty (you ARE identifying the point of novelty over the prior art based on the spec, right?), then it should be allowed. If you find something relevant that does contain the point of novelty (even if you have to fill in the typical components with 103 secondary references), then reject - and when the applicant amends around that primary reference, allow the case!

It surprises me how few of my colleagues here at the office can see the strings that really control the system... RCEs happen so frequently because petitioning for withdrawal of finality is futile and appeal results in reopening prosecution. An RCE *should* only be required as a sort of punishment for the attorney refusing to amend around good art or failing to make it clear to the examiner why the claims don't read on the art (this sometimes happens but if you make it clear how the case could become allowable almost all attorneys will take the path of least resistance to allowance provided you're not demanding a picture claim)... It should NOT be a payment for the examiner to redo a lousy job.

-MM

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(Deleted post)
Re: auto filing rce's vs forcing non-final - (Anonymous), 2008-09-09 01:35 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: auto filing rce's vs forcing non-final - (Anonymous), 2008-09-18 04:40 am UTC (Expand)
Know the goals
(Anonymous)
2008-09-14 06:33 pm UTC (link)
"Really understand the vision and mission of the organization," said Ane Powers, managing partner and career coach at White Hawk Group.

The mission is not what's written on a plaque on a wall; it's what people know in their guts about why the organization exists.

_______________________________OOO_______________________________

As an Examiner I struggle with balancing what I perceive to be my responsiblity as a public servant and surveyor of IP within an organization that's milking a cash cow for all its worth.

Those representing the Applicant's don't seem to be much better, amending with limitations which are readily found within the prior art cited with the first action. Kinda tells me you guys are hanging on to your own set of teets over there.

So, don't blame the employees within an organization for simply upholding the goals of the organization.

~Still learning to go along in order to get along

Write your Congressman!



(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Know the goals
(Anonymous)
2008-09-15 02:50 pm UTC (link)
Don't hate the Playa ~ Hate the game!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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