just_n_examiner: USPTO Job Fair

just_n_examiner (

just_n_examiner) wrote,
@ 2008-06-03 21:38:00

USPTO Job Fair
The USPTO will host an on-site job fair from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. on Saturday, June 14th, in the Madison Building Auditorium to recruit patent examiners for fiscal year 2008.

The USPTO's goal is to attract qualified applicants who have a bachelors or advanced degree in computer engineering, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, biomedical engineering, chemical engineering, chemistry and physics. Applicants must also possess effective oral and written communication skills with the ability to succeed in a production environment.

Additionally, listed below is the schedule of upcoming regional job fairs:

June 6-7, Detroit, MI

June 13-14, Cleveland, OH

June 27-28, Durham, NC

To schedule an interview, interested applicants must register at www.usptocareers.gov/jobfair.

(Post a new comment)

Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-09 09:04 pm UTC (link)

Hello,
When I considered joining the USPTO sometime ago (last year), I was offered, I think (can't recall exactly), Grade 9 Step 10. The recruiter initially offered me Grade 7 and then negotiated to Grade 9 (Computer Engineering area). Not sure why he didn't offer Grade 8. Anyway, a few questions (as you might have guessed, I didn't take the offer, but it continues to be on my mind)-

1. I was wondering, how are the annual salary raises at USPTO? Can I figure that out from the compensation document at http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/html/dcb.asp ?

2. Does USPTO pay for anything other than Law school, like an MBA, for instance?

3. Is Telecommuting available for the Computer Engineering unit?

4. Generally, how many cases is an examiner supposed to complete per year/quarter (Computer engineering unit)? Just trying to get a sense of the workload etc...

The recruiter that came to the recruitment drive wasn't very well informed, and the HR rep he guided me to didn't answer my email...

Thank you for your time.

Av.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-09 10:34 pm UTC (link)

There is no Grade 8 to offer. :) I recommend using the pay table you can find at http://www.popa.org/txt/salary2008.txt . It is straight forward to see the salary progression from where you'd be starting (gs-9 step 10).

1) There is generally a 1-3% cost of living adjustment every year. Generally as a jr. examiner you will get a promotion per year. To figure out your 'new' salary you look at your current salary, move two steps higher, then go down to the next gs level, and find the closest number that isn't lower than what that number is. (For a step 10, you'd add twice the difference between step 9 and 10 to the step 10 pay and use that instead.)

Any raises other than the cost of living are up to OPM and management's whim. We got a 2% raise this summer from them. Previously last fall we got a 7% raise. It seems that these are fairly rare. (I've only been at the office for about 2 years now though.) If you don't take promotions, then you move up the steps at a certain rate based on OPM's formula. But promotions is a faster way to increase salary.

2) USPTO currently pays for graduate work that relates to your job. Might be hard to justify MBA courses in the computer engineering area. They don't pay for everything, the way they pay for everything for law school though. They just pay for the tuition itself.

3) Telecommuting is not available until you are a GS-12, and have passed the proficiency test and are non-probationary. If you start at GS-9 and advance as fast as possible, you will hit that mark at just barely 2 years.

4) There's probably a better thread on JPE talking about production standards. If you're going into a computer engineering-ish type art, you will probably have to do about 4 cases every two weeks. This number varies greatly depending on what you are actually examining. When you're in training, you probably won't have enough time to do anymore than 3 per biweek, as they'll be shoving you around to various lectures and such all the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-10 03:12 pm UTC (link)

A couple of minor additions:

1. I think that they relaxed the standards a year or 2 back as to what classes the office would pay for. IIRC, the pto will pay for pretty much any class that relates to a technology that is examined in the pto. Even if it is not your own tech. You may want to double check on that, but I am fairly sure that was the case.

2. Your initial production really wouldn't start until you an the pta (patent training academy) about 2-2.5 months. For the next few months thereafter, your time examining will be around 50-80%, with the rest training. That would mean if you usually need 4 counts, you would only need 2-3 for this time. For the last couple months at the PTA & thereafter, you would need about 4 counts. As you move higher in grade, your production requirements would also go up.

3. I would strongly recommend to anyone taking an examining position that they take lowest GS level that they can afford (i.e., take 7 step 10 rather than 9 step 10 if you can afford the pay difference). This is because the lower GS that you start at the lower the production requirements. This makes it easier to get a "running start" at the job. And, you can get a promotion after 6 months if you are doing well.

Good luck.

thanks,

LL

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Question about compensation.. (Anonymous) 2008-06-10 09:43 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for your response. Starting with the lowest GS level is good advice. What is considered a promotion? When you move to the next GS level? Also, production requirements are based only on GS level or GS level + step#, meaning, production level for GS9, step 1 == GS9, step 10? Av (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-11 02:09 pm UTC (link)

Your GS level and your art class (what subject matter you work on) determines your production requirements. My GS-12 expectancy is the average 20.5 hours per BD (you'll find out what that means later, the important thing here is that it's the average), and I never had any problems starting at GS-9. I got the accelerated promotion to GS-11 at 6 months and still had no problems. I am on the way to GS-12 in September, and anticipate being fine there too. I consistently make the maximum bonus level.

Do not, however, expect the 6 month promotion as a given. Only a handful of trainees actually get that promotion at 6 months. Most others get it at 8 or 9 months, or even later. You simply become eligible at 6 months, you don't necessarily get it (it depends on what your trainer thinks you can handle).

The office will pay for just about any kind of graduate education you want now, but there are a few caveats:

1) Be aware that funding could disappear at any time, and you could be stuck in the middle of a degree with no tuition reimbursement.

2) You incur a service obligation; this is, however, rather small.

3) Do not get an MBA. Having an MBA makes you eligible to be sent to a business methods art unit. They take away examiner's shoe laces when assigned to these units to prevent them from hanging themselves.

-MM

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-12 05:38 pm UTC (link)

Oh, so I get to work where they choose, not where I would like to? Didn't realize that.
Are folks in levels G13/14/15 examiners too or are they some kind of supervisors? I thought I read in another thread that they are supervisors or something like that. I was wondering because it appears that you could potentially get a couple of promotions quickly/fairly quickly and that brings you to G12. Does one remain at G12 for a long time?

Another unrelated question- are there daycare facilities available onsite? (One of the questions I asked the HR rep in an email and she didn't respond...)

I appreciate you folks taking the time to answer..

Av.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-12 06:04 pm UTC (link)

"so I get to work where they choose, not where I would like to?" Correct. Much of the art specific knowledge is picked up while examining cases (at least in the computer/electrical arts).

"are there daycare facilities available onsite?"

Yes. http://centers.brighthorizons.com/uspto/ It's also terribly expensive.

Do your research before you accept a job here. Bestplacestowork.org places the uspto somewhere around 170 of 220. Take POPA.org's complaints with a grain of salt. The GAO reports (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d071102.pdf) are quite accurate.

Also, don't count on the promotions/bonuses. They are contingent upon outdated hiring goals which are highly unrealistic in some arts, IMHO.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-06-13 12:49 pm UTC (link)

GS15 positions are the supivervisor positions. GS13/14 are examining positions, but they are special. Up to GS12 you have to submit your cases to your Supervisor or a primary examiner for their signature since you do not have the authority to sign on behalf of the office.

As a GS12 you will have to take and pass the certification exam, which is basically half of the registration exam that attorneys must take in order to practice before the office. The exam is 50 ques, and you must get 30 correct to pass. After you pass that, you can then be promoted to a GS13 when you meet the time/production requirements.

As a GS13 you start was is called the program. This is a review period where you will get what is called temp partial sig authroity. You will sign certain actions, they will get reviewed, and go out with just your signature. It is 6 months long. When you pass that, you get partial sig authority, and you move onto the next part. The next part is temp full sign authority. Here again you sign certain actions that are reviewed then sent out with just your sig, it is 6 months long. Afte you pass that, you are granted Full sign authority. At this point you now have the authority to sign all actions on behalf of the office. At this point you are then eligible to be promoted to a GS14. A GS 14 is also called a primary examiner. You will generally stay a GS13 for 1 1/2 to 2 years at a minimum. There are other ways to become a GS14 before getting full sign authority, but I think I covered all the basics.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Question about compensation.. (Anonymous) 2008-06-13 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	There are also non-competitive ways to become a GS-15 without becoming a supervisor. Although, most examiners choose to stay a GS-14 because GS-15 production is not worth the extra money to them. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: Question about compensation.. (Anonymous) 2008-06-12 07:13 pm UTC (link)
	MBA would comprise business classes, right?....PTO examines business "inventions" (i.e. class 705)...by that rationale, MBA classes would be considered pertinent to business methods... anyone from business methods care to comment? (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-11-17 11:56 pm UTC (link)

I got hosed BIG TIME. I went from a 9 Step 8 to a 11 step 4. I sent my SPE an email about it and he has not talked to me about it. I guess I am taking money out of his pocket.

I do not understand, even if my NEW spe made an error, why did not somone else in the long line of approval notice this. Are they just people signing stuff they do not know what they are signing?

I also applied for a Board Position, hopefully I will get hired there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Question about compensation..
(Anonymous)
2008-07-03 03:54 am UTC (link)

I wonder how long did it take you to get the offer after your interview. I had an on-site interview at a job fair about a month and a half ago. But I have not heard again from the recruiter. I emailed her to check on the status but I did not get any response. I don't know if it is usual to wait this long. I am certain that I am qualified for the position in the chemistry area. My friend got her offer in less than a week. Unfortunately, I can't schedule for another interview within three months. It sounded like a good offer, why did you turn it down?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question about getting an offer
(Anonymous)
2008-10-03 03:30 pm UTC (link)

I interviewed in the spring. It is October and I received a call yesterday... on the 30th of Sept... asking if I could be there by the 24th... not an offer... I am still waiting for that.

No one would return my calls or answer my emails after I had my initial interview. There is so much negativity on the internet about working at the PTO that my husband doesn't want me to accept the job. It's going to be an uphill fight all the way. I don't know who to believe any more.

All jobs expect you to work twice as much for half the pay. But PTO adds Bureaucracy to the problem... that's what I am reading... what that means is anyone's guess.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

NEWS FLASH: Examiners are not average people, but rather are extraordinarily talented...

(Anonymous)
2008-06-13 11:33 am UTC (link)

... and Director Dudas may use this fact to try to increase Examiners' production goals (decrease hrs/bd). From his letter to Congressman Berman, debunking the OIG and GAO studies that have said Examiners leave for production-related reasons:

"Neither study analyzed the specifics of the production system. More important, neither study recognized that with nearly 6,000 talented scientists and engineers, there is no "average patent examiner." The key to establishing the optimal production goals is to be sure that the system allows for maximum flexibility and maximum opportunity for each and every examiner. Examiners are intelligent and hard working. We must ensure the production system allows them to appropriately choose their level of work and bonuses."

http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/law/dudas.ltr.pdf

How's that for a back-handed compliment, Examiners?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are not average people, but rather are extraordinarily talented... (Anonymous) 2008-06-13 12:39 pm UTC (link)
	He says production increased 5% for those on the flat goal pilot, but fails to disclose that the border for fully successful was raised 5% on flat goal! Of course production increased 5%! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are not average people, but rather are extraordinarily talented... (Anonymous) 2008-06-13 07:17 pm UTC (link)
	In Numptyland, anything is possible! (Reply to this) (Parent)

Director Dudas' little finger: an allegorical message to those Examiners...
(Anonymous)
2008-06-14 01:05 pm UTC (link)

...who want more time to do a quality job:

'But he forsook the counsel of the elders which they had given him,
and consulted with the young men who grew up with him and served
him. So he said to them, "What counsel do you give that we may
answer this people who have spoken to me, saying, 'Lighten the yoke
which your father put on us'?" The young men who grew up with him
spoke to him, saying, "Thus you shall say to this people who spoke
to you, saying, 'Your father made our yoke heavy, now you make it
lighter for us!' But you shall speak to them, 'My little finger is
thicker than my father's loins! 'Whereas my father loaded you with
a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you
with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions.'"'

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Director Dudas' little finger: an allegorical message to those Examiners... (Anonymous) 2008-06-14 02:03 pm UTC (link)
	(c) NASB® for above quote (Reply to this) (Parent)

Definately be prepared for a potentially heavy yoke!
(Anonymous)
2008-06-16 04:07 pm UTC (link)

Production can be a real deal-breaker around here. The system was instituted in 1976'ish, when there were about 3M patents.

We're now over 7M patents and think of the advances in the last 35+years; video games, hand-held devices, programable device in cars, phones, toys etc. . .

Back when production was put in place "simple arts" had less time to do a case; simple meaning fasteners, electrical connectors, cables etc. Now with the technological advances, you have hybrid cables with special electrical connectivity fastened within their respective devices in such a way that makes them some form of an improvement.

So Examiner's in these "simple arts" are having to search high and low and all over this place to find the not-so-simple attributes which now accompany the "simple art" part of an application that sits on their docket with little time to do the case.

Watch Fritz Lang's Metropolis, the PTO mirrors it to a Tee.

~Tired

(Reply to this)

Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...)
(Anonymous)
2008-06-17 06:19 pm UTC (link)

No, I don't think so, but the bosses at the PTO do! Let me explain.

Just about no where else in the world are applicants obliged to disclose known prior art. The examiners at the other patent offices do a fine job of examining with no information.

According to the PTO, though, you, Ms. Examiner, are a dolt. You are only capable of rubber stamping the smart attorneys work, after we do your job. Why do I say that? Because not only do we disclose the art we know, John Doll et al. want us to do a search for you, and then prepare the first office action AND the first response before you even pick up the application (this is what the Applicant Quality Submission/Examination Support Document is - we characterize all the prior art with respect to the claims in thoroughness I have never seen in ANY office action, and we explain why we are patentable over the prior art).

As long as the Management considers you a fool compared to your JPO, EPO, etc., counterparts, you will never get the treatment you deserve. . . Further, to the extent that any of these initiatives are adopted, expect to see your production requirements increase, etc.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...)
(Anonymous)
2008-06-18 12:07 pm UTC (link)

This remark is dead on, but nothing new.

Starting in the late 1960s when "Compact Prosecution" became the mission and production and action taking became the "Law" (PAP) the various failures to meet the backlogs or pendency goals of the day rolled down onto the examining corps. An examiner cranking out 110% production would not suffer close scrutiny; after all production can be measured by looking at a PALM report but shoddy searching, failure to make decent rejections takes supervisory time and consideration, and only blatant violations or personal conflicts would bring adverse consequences. Most managers recognized this; a former SPE of mine said words to the effect "We want Chevies, not Caddilacs."

In a supposedly professional environment like the PTO this creates an atmosphere of cynicism and contempt, most of the former among the troops, the latter among the commanders. This us-vs-them culture has existed for decades up to and including the current day.

When the lack of quality engendered by this scheme became visible to the outside (Swinging on a swing, Cat pointer) management reacted in accordance with its second core value: Don't embarass the Office. Since the backlog and pendency have never been resolved and indeed have become even worse management can't abandon the "produce, produce, produce" mantra, so it addressed with the "Reject, reject, reject" mantra, along with, in effect, offloading the search and evaluation function onto applicants. They want the production, but don't want accept the lower quality, resulting in achieving neither.

I don't have a magic wand to quickly fix this, but it looks more and more likely that, along with some other reforms, that the management culture must be destroyed and replaced. My impossible fantasy is to just create a new agency with the proviso that nobody who worked at a management position of Director or higher may be appointed to a management position in the new Agency. Let them return as lowly examiners if they want to stay on the government side of the patent biz.

-GratefullyExExaminer

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...) (Anonymous) 2008-06-18 07:46 pm UTC (link)
	But in Numptyland anything is possible! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...) (Anonymous) 2008-06-27 02:36 am UTC (link)
	I was curious if anybody has noted a rise in the number of former examiners denied registration numbers? I see the lady who was unsucessfuly prosecuted for not having enough gate time did not get one, and when I put the names of people who left on bad terms into the register, their names did not come up. Just curious. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...)
(Anonymous)
2008-06-27 03:37 pm UTC (link)

i think the requirement for getting a registration number requires the applicant to be at fully successful upon departure from the pto. i also believe that this requirement is only operative if the applicant is asking that the requirement to take the patent bar exam be waived.

can the PTO deny an applicant the opportunity to take the exam if the applicant left on bad terms?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...)
(Anonymous)
2008-06-27 07:55 pm UTC (link)

I was more curious about situations, for example, where a supervisor wants to be rid of an employee for whatever reason, and then tries to find something - anything - the employee has done to get them fired, like inappropriate use of the copier, phone, insufficient gate or office time, etc. I know of one supervisor who feels it is an unfair hassle to go through government rules firing a worker in addition to the fact the worker is probably hurting his group production, so he apparently goes this route. But then, the ex-examiner has to explain this to OED when he applies for his number, and he may not get it. Last year I heard some people talking about it, and was wondering if anyone else knew of anything.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...) (Anonymous) 2008-06-27 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	"I know of one supervisor who feels it is an unfair hassle to go through government rules firing a worker" He/she probably also feels like it's an unfair hassle to go through rules for establishing a prima facie case of anything. Getting paid GS-15 money to do nothing more than be a dick. Easy job if there ever was one. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: NEWS FLASH: Examiners are incompetent (was Examiners are . . . extraordinarily talented...) (Anonymous) 2008-06-27 10:27 pm UTC (link)
	Funny - or I should say sad - right before they got fired, he would send everyone an email about theft of government property, which included internet time, the phone, copiers, etc. and then everyone would wait for a shoe to drop. I heard the lady (who had a different SPE) that was unsuccessfully prosecuted for not having enough gate time never got a number. (Reply to this) (Parent)

The other side of Director Dudas' mouth speaks!
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 11:59 am UTC (link)

Hey JPE, did you see this:

http://www.uspto.gov/main/homepagenews/2008jul14.htm

Quoting:

"The article goes on to cite Mr. Dudas’s active role in 'promoting the administrations’ applicant quality submissions (AQS) provision to the US Patent Reform Act, Senate bill S.1145.' In the interview, Mr. Dudas told the magazine that the search requirement is a 'quality initiative' that makes sense, since 'the applicant knows more about their invention that anyone else.'"

So much for examiner expertise! What does he think extraordinarily talented Examiners should be, experts in their respective arts or something? Or perhaps all inventors should be scouring the patent literature rather than inventing?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The other side of Director Dudas' mouth speaks!
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 09:45 pm UTC (link)

Dudas is absolutely clueless. Yes, applicants know THEIR invention better than anybody else, but they don't know the prior art better than anybody else.

Dudas, and the rest of the chuckleheads over there, are apparently laboring under the delusion that inventors sit around reading patents all day, and that inventors invent by simply combining various patent disclosures.

Determining the scope and content of the prior art is the PTO's job, not applicants.

If Dudas is so influential or whatever, how come he can't get a job on the outside?

Oh, and if he's so influential, how come his efforts to get any portion of patent reform have been a total failure?

LOL

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: The other side of Director Dudas' mouth speaks! (Anonymous) 2008-07-24 02:36 am UTC (link)
	One of the better posts I have ever seen. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	GS Level - New Employee (Anonymous) 2008-09-17 05:18 pm UTC (link)
	I have 2 years of experience working as an electrical engineer for a utility company in the northeast. If I were to apply for a patent examiner position, what GS level/step would I be considered? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: GS Level - New Employee (Anonymous) 2008-10-03 03:43 pm UTC (link)
	you would be at the bottom. I have 25 years experience and I was offered $40K at the bottom. Read the rest of this thread. You want to come in as low as possible. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	iristopemployer 2008-11-04 12:04 am UTC (link)
	How do I find out more about the pay grades for the above positions? I think it futile going to graduate recruitment fairs without knowing such info in advance. Especially with government appointments. Thanks (Reply to this) (Thread)

	PTO Jobs just_n_examiner 2008-11-04 03:39 am UTC (link)
	Try looking here. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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