just_n_examiner ([info]just_n_examiner) wrote,
@ 2008-03-05 20:34:00
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Arguing Well
But first, a brief comedic diversion:



There are many facets of the job of patent examiner. Lots of searching, legal and technical research and analysis, and writing. There is, also, a bit of arguing. The nature of the job is that examiners are in a pretty much constant state of disagreement with attorneys.

Addressing an attorney's arguments can be challenging, although obviously if your prior art is solid and your rejection is strong, it is less of an issue.

Of course, occasionally an attorney submits such a lengthy response that the challenge is just to find the real arguments amongst all the blather.

I sometimes see responses where the attorney seems to make it a mission to inflate the length of their response, usually at the expense of clarity and conciseness. A couple of the more common practices I've seen include repeating the same arguments for multiple claims, and the ever-popular 3-page (and that seems to be the standard length) treatise on the requirements of making a rejection under 103, including a recitation of the statutory and legislative history. I really wouldn't think that there's much of a chance that these 'history of 103'-type arguments would have much chance of success, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to get your arguments on the record, especially since (I strongly suspect) they are pre-written and just dropped routinely into the attorney's remarks.

This type of practice does have the potential to cause problems, though, because when one sees what they perceive as boilerplate arguments, the natural inclination is to skip ahead a bit, which means that there is always the potential to miss relevant arguments.


So, what would be great for me? I'd love to see arguments formatted more consistent with appeal practice. If each distinct argument were presented as a concise statement (maybe as bullet points?), and followed by the supporting remarks, the possibility of missing an argument that needs to be addressed would be precluded.

Truth be told, I'd appreciate this type of response most specifically for when I'm reviewing the office actions of my junior examiners. They occasionally miss arguments that they should be responding to. (I'm sure it's just an oversight, and not an instance of conveniently overlooking an argument that would be tough to answer.) It takes time to go through all of the attorney's remarks to verify that the relevant arguments have been addressed by the examiner.

I'm actually not sure why there seems to be such an inconsistency between the styles utilized by attorneys when arguing their case before the examiner for a normal rejection and for an appeal brief, besides the obvious facts that there are specific guidelines for appeal briefs, and that the arguments in a brief are meant not only for the examiner, but also for the judges sitting on the BPAI.

It would seem to be a simple matter to carry the same style of presenting arguments across all attorney's submissions, though, and the appeal brief style just seems to me to be much better organized than much of what I see in my day-to-day amendments.


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Concise Arguments in Responses
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 03:32 am UTC (link)
Amen brother! Same goes to the long-winded examiners.

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Re: Concise Arguments in Responses
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 10:24 am UTC (link)
I would much rather have a little bit longer discussion from an Examiner than the, unfortunately, too common "element A is shown by cols. 1-10 of reference X" (which is the whole X document).

I assume that appeal briefs are better structured because 1) (hopefully) the issue has been narrowed and 2) the client has decided to pay for the more detailed response.

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3 page responses
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 03:37 am UTC (link)
Regarding the 3 page 103 response, or the multi-page 101 response.
1) You are correct after the first time, the response is mostly boilerplate;
2) However, many times the multi-page agreement is a measure of anger (especially with 101) and is usually a long way of saying "Why the Hell don't you follow your own rules?" or "This rejection makes no sense, combines incompatible tests, and was probably ordered by your boss without you understanding it; therefore you must be so poorly educated on this section that I have to run a training course."
3) With 103 there is usually the frustration that there are no ground rules that are followed. Most 103 rejections are "I reject this because I said so", usually with an official notice thrown in. Realistically, not much the attorney can do about that. The 3 page may be an attempt to set some ground rules.
4) I do agree that they need to be used judiciously. If they become too routine, they get ignored. My favourite arguments are usually "102 is not satisfied because the cited art's one X is not the claim's two Xs" or "102 is not satisfied because the cited art's tab A goes into slot D not the claim's slot A, and claim's tab B isn't even present in the cited art".

Especially with 101 I have thought about reformatting MPEP 2107 (or is it 2106?) as a flowchart and asking the Examiner what their answer is for each decision block in the flowchart.

I have calmed down a bit now (as I have been writing Apps and not doing prosecution for a while, but for about 1 year I really did feel that I was running a training course for the Examiner core via my answers. Of course, when I really did have someone who knew what he was doing he would clean my clock. Sloppy is much easier to argue against than professional.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 06:09 am UTC (link)
I don't mind the boilerplate, what's annoying is when the boilerplate's followed by a conclusory statement that the rejection should be withdrawn without any analysis. Sounds like something an examiner would do :)

The other thing I've been seeing recently is the Totally Perfunctory Appeal Brief followed by an Actual Substantive Reply Brief. Is this just a gambit based on the theory that examiners really really don't want to write a Supplemental Examiner's Answer?

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replationship of Rule 111 replies, Appeal Briefs, Reply Briefs
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Overwhelmingly, especially in 3620 and 3690 business methods, Office actions are no more than lint thrown in the air. The examiners seldom read anything - they ignore the claims, ignore the references (except to match up a few stray key words from each). Claim limitations are ignored. The word "must" in the MPEP draws expressions of contempt from most (80%+) of 3620/3690 examiners. Dictionaries for technical terms of art are freely ignored; "the Examiner is of another opinion" but that opinion is based on nothing. We view most examiner work product from 3620/3690 as clear attempts to game the system, to play hide the ball as long as possible to force the applicant to file as many continuations as possible, to simply run up counts.

The reason that appeal briefs and reply briefs are "different" is that (for the overwhelming majority of 3620/3690 examiners) an Examiner's Answer is the *only* examiner work product where the PTO enforces any requirements for completeness, clarity, and following the rules set forth in the MPEP. An applicant's goal in an Appeal Brief is to force the examiner to put *something* on paper at long last. The Answer is usually the first time the Examiner puts the cards face up on the table, so that we can see what the Examiner's view is. The Reply Brief is the first paper we can file that responds to the examiner's view, because overwhelmingly the Examiner's Answer is the first time any rejection is articulated clearly enough to permit a reply.

John Love trained most of these examiners. I suppose that's why he was promoted.

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It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-06 06:57 pm UTC (link)
to be able to focus on the strongest attack against the examiner's rejection, but we have to throw all the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks, otherwise we lose the right to argue additional points on appeal.

It would also be nice if the examiner would actually consider your arguments in the context of the case, and not in a vacuum. I've just completed a response in which the Examiner has stretched the meaning of the prior art beyond the point of snapping. I've pointed this out over and over, but the art remains in the rejection, likely because the examiner's too darned lazy to search for better. Been through several non-finals already, but the primary reference remains the same.

bierbelly

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-07 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I completely agree. I also have noticed that some of the Examiners are stretching the meaning of the prior art well beyond the breaking point. Like any organization there are some knowledgeable people and some who are simply sloppy. Presently, you can only hope that your case is assigned to a knowledgeable Examiner.
The other day, I came across a website that seems to be trying to have patent attorneys, patent agents, and inventors review and comment on specific Patent Examiners. I am not sure how well that will work in real world, but the idea of it is definitely interesting. I think the website's address is www.usptoexaminers.com.

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-07 10:20 pm UTC (link)
The last contributer speaks of "the breaking point". Isn't that the point? The pre-eminent purpose of a claim is to define with precision the boundary between what's inside the claim and what's not. The Examiner patiently plays the innocent child, posing in the interests of the general public the "Emperor has no Clothes" question "I don't see the Line" deliberately and precisely in order to extract from stubborn and recalcitrant Applicant's attorney a precise definition of where the f**k the boundary of the claim lies. Applicant's attorney would rather not say. Hence the heat. Hence the irritation with the Examiner, even though he's only doing his job, in the most effective way he can.

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-08 01:37 am UTC (link)
Well, it's fine to play that game on the FAOM. But when you're called on it, either go get better art (costing the applicant more money) or allow the damned case. It's entirely unfair for a "public servant" to be continually playing hide the pickle.

As to a website finking on particular examiners, I would never participate. I think it's wrong to single people out. You (collectively) have no idea what's going on behind the curtain. I can imagine what some attorneys might have said about me when it was my SPE who was pulling the strings. I actually had a primary call me for an examiner's amendment two weeks ago (to which I agreed and excitedly announced to my organization), and yesterday received a final office action limiting allowable subject matter to something we never discussed. I really doubt that was his doing.

bierbelly

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-10 04:22 pm UTC (link)
With respect to the website, I agree that SPEs and to some degree the Primary Examiners are the ones who pull the string. However, I think such a website keeps the Examiners in check. After all, if someone says that a particular examiner does not have a good grasp of sections 102 and 103 that would reflect on the Primary or the SPE who signed off on the rejection. Additionally, I noticed that the Examiners that are presently named on the website are either Primary Examiners or SPEs.

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-08 04:39 pm UTC (link)
***The pre-eminent purpose of a claim is to define with precision the boundary between what's inside the claim and what's not. The Examiner patiently plays the innocent child, posing in the interests of the general public the "Emperor has no Clothes" question "I don't see the Line" deliberately and precisely in order to extract from stubborn and recalcitrant Applicant's attorney a precise definition of where the f**k the boundary of the claim lies. Applicant's attorney would rather not say. Hence the heat. Hence the irritation with the Examiner, even though he's only doing his job, in the most effective way he can.***

The prior poster was discussing the prior art and unreasonable interpretation of the teachings of the prior art and/or the claims (i.e., rejections based upon the prior art). However, what you are talking about (i.e., "a precise definition .... of the claim") falls under the second paragraph of 35 USC 112.

Your "I don't see the Line" question has no place in examination.

You can ask "are the claims definite?" If so, then they meet the second paragraph of 35 USC 112.
You can ask "does reference Y identically disclose all the limitations of claim 1?" If so, then the claim does not meet 35 USC 102. Anyway, you get the picture.

The stubborn and recalcitrant attorney is probably so because the questions being asked are not properly formed and/or an attempt to prematurely shift the burden of establishing patentability from the examiner to applicant.

Also, what I see all too often from examiners is the inability to distinguish between distinctly claiming and enablement. The claims aren't intended to enable the invention ... as such, all the features needed to practice the invention do not have to make it into the claims. Enablement is taken care of by the specification. Moreover, the specification is written for one having ordinary skill in the art, and as such, does not need to be an encyclopedia.

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-09 09:11 am UTC (link)
Thanks for that answer, on 112 and "definite". I'm from Europe and there the Exr has to examine whether, under Art 84 EPC, the claim is "clear", and also whether, under Art 54 EPC, it embraces anything old. If the claim recites a term like "flexible" I suppose it's unclear and indefinite, but another way to flush a clear new definite claim out of the Applicant, that is available to EPO Exrs, is to assert that the prior art reference (let's call it D1) discloses something that can reasonably be said to be "flexible". There are more ways than one to manage a prosecuting attorney behaving like in the Monty Python video above. Calling him unclear or indefinite gets him all excited. Quietly calling his claim wide enough to include something old is effective (at least in Europe) to get him quicker to a clear definite new claim. In the interests of the long-suffering public.

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Re: It would be nice...
(Anonymous)
2008-03-13 10:55 pm UTC (link)
Well it seems pranksters caught wind of that site today; at least some of them are likely examiners... While I wish they'd put forth a more mature face when representing their profession (as I wish a certain examiner that regularly posts on Patently-O would), I do think that the site itself wasn't in the best spirit to begin with.

-MM

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-08 03:52 am UTC (link)
Regarding what is put into a response by an attorney, an examiner should remember that the examiner is not the only audience.

When a response/amendment is filed, the response/amendment isn't only written for the examiner, it can also be written for the partner (who reviews the response), the client, the SPE (particularly if the examiner is a newbie), the Board, the Federal Circuit (if the application is directed to really important technology), potential infringers, the litigator attempting to enforce the (eventually) issued patent, the litigator attempting to invalidate/limit the issued patent, and the attorneys attempting to (obtain a) license the patent. Did I miss anybody?

Depending upon how experienced the attorneys is and what has worked (or bitten the attorney in the a&&) before, the attorney may be inclined to exclude/include certain language.

For example, if the examiner is making an obviousness argument in a 102 rejection (I actually had that one today), the attorney may be more inclined to include some additional boilerplate language as to what, exactly, constitutes a rejection under 102. Many attorneys (and a topic of a thread not too long ago) feel compelled to provide a little instruction on the law since it appears that many examiners don't have a firm grasp on the law. The doctrine of inherency is a great example, as well as what is required for a rejection under the judicially created doctine of obviousness-type double patenting.

Regardless, if boiler plate (and word-for-word reproduction of claim language) was eliminated from office actions, my guess is that most office actions wouldn't be longer than 2 pages.

As for the specific guidelines for appeal, I don't see how relevant they are. Regarding the argument section, all you need to do is identify each rejection (which a good attorney should anyway) and respond to it, but once that happens any format works.

Most attorneys were introduced to the concept of IRAC during law school, which stands for Issue, Rule, Analysis, Conclusion. Although I don't always use it, or use it in that exact manner, a good argument should introduce the issue (e.g., "did the examiner establish X feature was identically disclosed by US PAT xxxxxxx?"), set forth the rule of law (a rejection under 35 USC 102 for novelty requires A, B, C; claim construction involves ...), perform the analysis (e.g., US PAT xxxxxxxx shows Y, which the examiner asserted identically discloses X, but Y is not comparable to X for the following reasons .... the examiner's claim construction is wrong because .... ), and then conclude (thus, applicant submits that the examiner has failed to establish that US PAT xxxxxxx identically discloses feature X of claim 1).

In appeals or subsequent responses, I like to repeat (or paraphrase) my initial argument, then identify the examiner's response to that prior argument, and then explain why I believe that the examiner's response is wrong and/or incomplete for ignoring certain arguments.

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Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Does anyone have any good information on whether or not the one hour requirement for hotelling will be removed anytime soon? A few months ago I heard there was a bill in the senate that would eliminate this requirement (I think it was for a limited time - a trial period only), but I haven't heard anything since.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 01:51 pm UTC (link)
I wish they would get rid of it already. I can't wait to get out of the DC area!

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 05:14 pm UTC (link)
I've already had instances where Examiners couldn't be bothered to hold an interview because they were hoteling and it's not convenient for them to come into the office. I have nothing against flexible policies, but when it makes the job suffer, it's not reasonable.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 05:28 pm UTC (link)
Why not do a phone interview?

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Threatening the Examiner is not as effective over the phone. ;^)

bierbelly

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 07:46 pm UTC (link)
You'll have to figure out some phone threats because there will be a nationwide workforce in the very near future. Does anyone have any insight into exactly when? I've heard this year sometime.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Tough to point at figures, show examples of product or the like on the phone. The value (to me anyway) of an in-person interview is that we can have an effective discussion with common reference to the art and the application and any additional evidence I am hoping to discuss. In some circumstances, the value is giving the inventor an opportunity to understand first-hand the positions of the examiner (or vice versa, where the examiner is reluctant to take attorney argument as being technically persuasive). Can't say I've ever tried threats - I'd guess that phone threats and in person threats would carry equal weight.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-11 08:49 pm UTC (link)
The PTO has fascilities to do this with Hotelling people using webcams and such, so it isn't necessary for the Examiner to come to Alexandria, rather Applicant schedules to use the conference area at the PTO for the interview. (Not sure exactly what these rooms are called, but I know they exist)

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-12 04:01 am UTC (link)
Since this topic was mentioned, I have a question on video conferencing. I had a client a while back who wanted to do a video conference with the Examiner. Is this possible now? The last I checked the MPEP, video conferencing was only possible from a couple of locations in the US. Something to do with IT details. Thanks.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-12 03:51 pm UTC (link)
we have the hardware in place (i.e. webcams and microphones at every workstation), but so far we haven't been trained on the software, if it's even installed yet.

-MM

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-12 04:44 pm UTC (link)
The software is installed, it is the nortel network software icon on your desktop. I got training on the software at the patent training academy. (granted, it was very brief and basic)

I think as part of the hotelling training they show you how to do all that stuff.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-14 02:16 am UTC (link)
I thought that the Desktop/Hoteling web cams running the Nortel software are for interoffice communications and the video conferencing refered to in the MPEP is a separate setup.
Personally I don't need to see the other fellows face as long as I can talk to him but sharing and being able to point out things on a document is key and makes the whole personal interview seem old fashion and a laborious.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-15 01:45 am UTC (link)
Hsving just recently gone through hoteling training, I can say that the video phone and document sharing capabilities of the Nortel client only work within the patent office system. It's a shame, because most examiners do not need or want that stuff. The place where it would come in handy was mentioned earlier in the thread--interviews with applicants.

You should learn how to use it though. One useful feature is that you can tell if people on your contacts list are online and available. You can even tell when they are on the phone. This is very handy for hotelers, but I started using it when I was in the office too.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-15 02:09 am UTC (link)
Well actually you can tell that they have turned it on but that doesn't mean they are actually there, they maybe flexing and just because it is turned off doesn't mean they are not there, they maybe just forgot to turn it on.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-15 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Right, sometimes I forget to turn it off. If management is looking, they can see that I worked all night.

Conversely, I am quite sure my primary does not log in, just so he won't get bothered.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-13 06:41 pm UTC (link)
Classic government employee reply: no training, then there's no way I can be expected to learn it or figure it out.

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-13 06:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I was going to put a jab like that in there, but I figured I'd let someone else do it. :) Unfortunately, I must be a non-classic government employee, since I figured it out myself. :(

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-13 10:58 pm UTC (link)
If someone ever requested a video conference with me, I'd figure out the software. No one has ever even hinted that they wanted to do that, so why bother?

I have tried using the Nortel client for intraoffice instant messaging, and it gives me a ton of errors when I open it... I'd get someone to come fix it, but since the only way to get anyone to even talk to you around here is to go bang on their door anyway, why bother?

-MM

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Re: Hotelling
(Anonymous)
2008-03-14 04:27 am UTC (link)
The Nortel software is very nice for keeping track of phone calls but not a single examiner I know has ever used the video functionality.

Some of the training academy people use the IM abilities but that's about it.

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This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction
(Anonymous)
2008-03-15 01:50 am UTC (link)
I had not seen that sketch in probably 30 years, but I had never forgotten it. There's hardly a week that goes by without me thinking about it as I read the responses I get. Thanks for posting it!

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